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Poll: Which would be best for SRS open wheel?
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Driver inc. rate limit
25.61%
21 25.61%
Driver rating limit
24.39%
20 24.39%
Enforce yellow flags
15.85%
13 15.85%
Pre-qualification races / series
34.15%
28 34.15%
Total 82 vote(s) 100%
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Open wheel racing in SRS
#11
Quote:4) I'm a little confused on this one. There seems to be blurry lines between a licensing system, pre-qualifying system, and simple safety or performance rating splits as discussed above. I mean, aren't we pre-qualifying with every race we do? And isn't the rating a type of license if used to differentiate drivers? Serious question, I just don't know. Besides, I wouldn't assume that just because someone did well in an F3 series, that they want to progress to F1 rather that compete in clean MX-5 races.

The way I understand pre-qualyfing it's just something that stops people from joining a race they're not ready to race in.

Something that's easily done and you would do anyways as a responsible sim racer. Like completing a certain amount of consecutive valid laps on separate qualifying server.

Rating limit kind of does that, but SRS isn't big enough to make good use of it, imho. We're not iRacing, people won't join SRS because they want to be able to race F1 cars in a couple of months or even a year. They want to race their favorite car now or they simply won't sign up.
Amazing list of awesome achievements: 5th Lotus 25 2018, 4th DRM 2019, 5th Williams FW14 vs. Ferrari 643 2019, 3rd Ferrari 312T vs. Lotus 72D 2020
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#12
Hi Simon great points here,


The pre qualifying is a nice idea and maybe we dont even need a separate server. What if at race time ALL then entrants needed to complete at least 10 laps in practice before qualifying? They would get the practice they needed. If you practiced at the track once you would not need to do it again for that track that week and I am using the 20 min daily series as an example. You could even add a maximum lap time and disqualify people that didnt make the cut or those that hit the walls x times.

Regarding rating limit, I am in the US and a rating system here would really hurts the no. of people that join races. Sometimes I am racing in the evening against 8 people and 9pm or after generally none as I dont join unless there are at least 6 people. We really dont have the same numbers as in Europe I guess people are in iRacing.

Regarding Tims point on community thats another topic!!!I used to race on race2play and after each race there was a discussion and it was great to join (race incident discussions were forbidden) I would love to have that on SRS so we could chat. The AC chat cuts off after a few mins after the race and people leave so its not really that good.

Great discussion!!
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#13
(09-21-2020, 11:33 AM)Simon Meisinger Wrote:  but SRS isn't big enough to make good use of it, imho. We're not iRacing, people won't join SRS because they want to be able to race F1 cars in a couple of months or even a year. They want to race their favorite car now or they simply won't sign up.

SRS has a huge base of drivers, but most drivers decide to leave after some time driving here: why? Don't know, but I left sometimes SRS and came back to drive again with my friends. Small changes could make that drivers base to come back again, not only newbies (that are of course welcome). If numbers don't matter, if ratings don't matter, if incidents don't matter as a number...
Shaun Clarke Racing team.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXFr32FURbIpcY7IAMUaO7A
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#14
Thanks all, great discussion. I'm interested in the Americas perspective, and maybe there's someone from the Asia/Australasia sector who can let me know about issues there?
I can see that the little poll has got pre-quali as top rated option at the moment. Very interesting.
I think we risk is being exclusionary if we use Rating limits, as that is largely based on experience, and not necessarily a guide to racecraft, and has been tried for some series.
I would love to try a pre-quali of some sort. How could we do that in SRS with the minimum of disruption to the systems we have? Make practice X mins and you must complete Y valid/inc free laps before race start / quali end?

@Martin - re community, we quite often discuss incidents (reasonably) civilly in the Discord channel, join us there for that sort of chat.
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#15
(09-21-2020, 10:19 AM)Tim Masson Wrote:  Thanks Martin, that's great.
Again, I'm not suggesting any of these solutions as a catchall for all SRS series or races, as part of the joy of SRS is that we have a low bar to entry, that encourages folk to join in, be active and enjoy the racing. 
My initial brain dump / thought on Discord was really to wonder whether it might be worth an experiment with one open wheel series, say a weekly or bi-weekly slot, and use some sort of additional filter for that series. Then see how it goes for a few months.
See, this is part of my confusion. I don't see why a system that cleans up the racing in one series shouldn't be applied to all series.

I kind of understand the difference if a pre-quali system is used to exclude people from a particular series. We don't want to exclude people from every SRS series!

But I don't know why any evaluation system should be used to exclude anybody to begin with, since we can simply split anyone who failed to reach the standard into their own server. This is the case regardless of whether it's a ratings standard, a pre-quali exercise, or a licensing system. So my thinking is that nobody needs to be turned away from a series if they can be split into another server. Is this wrong?

As for what form a pre-quali system might take, I tried an exercise yesterday that could very clearly demonstrate the type of driving stanard needed to have clean raing online, but... I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to implement.

Here's what I did, in case it might spark someone else to have a eureka moment:

I created a 3-lap Exos S1 race against a full grid of 27 AI cars at Monza, who were set at 80% performance. Starting from the back, the exercise is to finish in the top 10 with ZERO incidents.

Finishing in the top 10 is dead easy in this exercise, but avoidinfpg incidens is extremely hard! It takes an anourmous amount of discipline to just park behind these very slow cars and wait for them to file through the corners like a lineup at a drive-through burger joint.

I'd be curious to hear what you guys think if you give it a try. I actually failed a dizen times or so because it was so much fun to try and eek out a position under braking or squeeze between a couple slowpokes. But it always came at a cost of incident(s), which I could see from my body damage.

Food for thought.
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#16
Yup, I did that exactly that with the rFactor 1 AI when I started sim racing. I thought when I'm able to navigate around those utter idiots, I should be okay in an online race against real people Big Grin
Amazing list of awesome achievements: 5th Lotus 25 2018, 4th DRM 2019, 5th Williams FW14 vs. Ferrari 643 2019, 3rd Ferrari 312T vs. Lotus 72D 2020
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#17
(09-23-2020, 05:47 AM)Martin Smith Wrote:  But I don't know why any evaluation system should be used to exclude anybody to begin with, since we can simply split anyone who failed to reach the standard into their own server. This is the case regardless of whether it's a ratings standard, a pre-quali exercise, or a licensing system. So my thinking is that nobody needs to be turned away from a series if they can be split into another server. Is this wrong?
Not wrong, and a valid point. We should try our experiment (should it ever happen) in a way that allows "unqualified" drivers (however that is defined) to compete on an alternate server.

(09-23-2020, 07:15 AM)Simon Meisinger Wrote:  Yup, I did that exactly that with the rFactor 1 AI when I started sim racing. I thought when I'm able to navigate around those utter idiots, I should be okay in an online race against real people Big Grin
Yup! I did that also, but it didn't prepare me for the shear lunacy of a supposedly human driver open-wheel race at Monza or Imola...
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#18
Do not practice against AI guys, you will only learn bad things Smile They are too unpredictable and behave unrealistically (super bad perf in some corners, bad braking points, not defending positions that non ai driver would defend, also behaving like you are not there sometimes, doing absurd lines and such). Its way better to just go on some practice server and try drive close to someone without destroing him, learn the limits of the car and your own limits. And then in race on srs just race like a gentleman, respect you oponents, leave them a bit of extra room, dont do agressive stupid shit that has low chance of succes and it will work out fine for you. You will improve over time, you get more comfortable in really close racing and incidents will go away Smile Sure bad things can happen sometimes even to the best of the best, but rarelly.
Also splitting people in more servers is kinda problematic because a lot of times there is only enough drivers for one server, and differences in speed can be massive between the fastest and slowest drivers, and noone really wants to race against only a few oponents.
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#19
(09-23-2020, 11:07 PM)Michal Ringes Wrote:  Do not practice against AI guys, you will only learn bad things  Smile They are too unpredictable and behave unrealistically (super bad perf in some corners, bad braking points, not defending positions that non ai driver would defend, also behaving like you are not there sometimes, doing absurd lines and such). Its way better to just go on some practice server and try drive close to someone without destroing him, learn the limits of the car and your own limits. And then in race on srs just race like a gentleman, respect you oponents, leave them a bit of extra room, dont do agressive stupid shit that has low chance of succes and it will work out fine for you. You will improve over time, you get more comfortable in really close racing and incidents will go away Smile Sure bad things can happen sometimes even to the best of the best, but rarelly.
The purpose of this thread isn't to identify learning opportunities but to devise a standard kind of test for drivers to pass before being eligible to race.

Quote:Also splitting people in more servers is kinda problematic because a lot of times there is only enough drivers for one server, and differences in speed can be massive between the fastest and slowest drivers, and noone really wants to race against only a few oponents.
You get those same problems if you exclude people from a race. Between excluding people and splitting them into their own server, I think the latter option has less downside.
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#20
(09-21-2020, 03:39 AM)Martin Smith Wrote:  1) As it stands we don't actually use the incident rating for any pupose, which is what your first option suggests we do. I had suggested this before >link here< but Henrique indicated he's not in favour of a restriction that would shrink the field on server 1. But now that I look at it again, maybe the 2nd server could be formed by incident rating rather than performance, so the 1st server is always full?

I disagree. If server 2 was full of drivers with a higher IR, then you'd mix up drivers who are trying to get better with drivers who just don't care and crash into them.

On one side, good drivers who don't crash, and will keep their IR low by racing drivers who don't crash. On the other, bad/rookie drivers who occasionally crash, and will keep their IR the same or higher by racing bad drivers who regularly crash.
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