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The case for Monza in Internet Sim Racing
#21
Racing before T1 at Monza on the Internet with pings from all over and questionable connections and not a professional driver in sight, is, actually, idiotic. Maybe not everyone has thought it through to this depth, so I wouldn't go so far as to call them all idiots, but there's really no purpose for doing it.
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#22
The "Turn 1 incident" term comes from real racing. I think the biggest problem arises because of the penalty system, that is safety rating and points deducted, regardless of whose fault it was. But that's a good point that not everyone has thought it through deep enough, Sobie. There are new people to SRS every season and every week it seems. There are people who don't have that much practice in simracing, let alone online races under their belt, and maybe Monza specifically. However, there's a reason why Monza and Spa are some of the most popular races in online lobbies. There's a learning curve and it's inevitable. Also, there's both eagerness and jitters not only at race start. Some people are anxious just because there's other people they're on the server with. Since it's not likely that you can reach specifically those people here on the forums about this subject, best anyone that cares can do is write something like "Take it easy in T1" in chat before the start. I'm sure you already do that. But everyone is here to race most importantly.

Of course, the worst situation is being in the mid-pack. Now, I'm writing something obvious and pointless for most of the guys here probably: You can't hope to pull away safely from mid-pack because of cars in front, and you can't just ease off and watch how everything develops because of cars behind. There's not much you can do from there, except make a good start and choose a line if you can and on time. Just to make yourself predictable to others so that they can react and calculate what to do. You can tap the brake lightly before actually braking to turn on the tail lights and signal the guy behind. If you brake too late, you risk taking out someone in front. Get off too slow, and you're risking yourself being punted from behind. I would always be decisive in what I want to do, without thinking and worrying about possible outcomes into T1.
Starting from the front row, you still have a chance of someone too eager missing his brake point and punting you. Starting from the back might be your best bet if you want to purely avoid T1 incidents. But then you have to drive your heart out only to achieve a decent finish in a 20 minutes race, maybe a 1 hour race too.
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#23
(06-30-2020, 09:30 PM)Martin Smith Wrote:  No, it's not. And you're really doing a disservice to yourself if you think of people that way.

How? You almost never know who those other people are you're racing with.

In a league race with 20 trusted people you can race before T1 at Monza, of course. Also in the lesser populated series at iRacing that only race twice a week.

There's a reason why there are strict rules for track days in real life when random amateurs share the same track. https://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-...onditions/
Amazing list of awesome achievements: 5th Lotus 25 2018, 4th DRM 2019, 5th Williams FW14 vs. Ferrari 643 2019, 3rd Ferrari 312T vs. Lotus 72D 2020
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#24
I don't umderstand your point. Do you think if someone you race with regularly makes the same mistake as someone you don't know, then the stranger is an idiot but the regular guy isn't?

If anything it's the opposite. Use your analogy as an example.

Let's say you drive a lot on the job and your colleague is always very safe at the pumps and always puts out his cigarette, except this one time he doesn't. You don't all of a sudden think he's an idiot, you assume he's distracted or something. And the same should apply to a stranger based on giving people the benefit of the doubt.

I mean if the first tome you meet someone they do something dumb, that doesn't mean they always do dumb thing! This is pretty simple logic.

On the other hand if that colleague regularly does dumb stuff then you can get to the poont where you justifiably consider him an idiot.

But when you jump to that conclusion about stangers right off the bat, it can very quickly grow into a negative outlook on the whole world. Which is why said you'd do yourself a disservice with that kind of cynicism.
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#25
To sum it up: everything is fine before T1 at Monza in sim racing, random sim racers are in general capable, trustable people to race around with and my experience with people in sim racing affects my judgement in the real world.

But to maybe clear up a misunderstanding: I don't say those people are idiots in general (I actually never used the term in this thread, I just said it's fitting), they might be really nice and smart, but they just don't know how to behave on a race track.

I'm an idiot myself in many regards, but that doesn't mean I'm an idiot in general (well, maybe Big Grin)

edit: I just read everything again and nobody called anyone an idiot in this thread, I don't know why Gianluca brought up people calling others that
Amazing list of awesome achievements: 5th Lotus 25 2018, 4th DRM 2019, 5th Williams FW14 vs. Ferrari 643 2019, 3rd Ferrari 312T vs. Lotus 72D 2020
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#26
I just quoted this post:

It would filter out the idiots before the actual race start, which is fine by me.

In daily races a system like that would definitely be abused though, yes. But it would still filter out the idiots if it goes along with a short suspension.

Of course it wasn't referred to anyone in particular, and - really - I didn't want to start any controversy. It felt more like "well, next time I'll do a mistake I'll be the new idiot of the day".

If you join any online lobby in AC you'll find most of the time people continuously offending each other. It's boring, and and I dropped it very quickly. In comparison SRS it's an heavenly place. Maybe mine was an inconscious suggestion, a sort of "let's make it even better".
I survived lap 1. Now I can deal with anything in life.
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#27
oh, I did call them idiots after all, sorry

Yet I'm not sorry, because they are what they are. But I would never call them that in person because maybe somebody just had a bad moment and we're not playing Call of Duty and should show s little tact.
Amazing list of awesome achievements: 5th Lotus 25 2018, 4th DRM 2019, 5th Williams FW14 vs. Ferrari 643 2019, 3rd Ferrari 312T vs. Lotus 72D 2020
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#28
(06-30-2020, 09:17 PM)Simon Meisinger Wrote:  One bad move before T1 at Monza isn't just a simple bad move. Trying to race before before T1 at Monza is like lighting up a cigarette while refueling your car.
Mate I was just reading the thread and didnt want to reply but you honestly sound like the most pretentious guy in the world refering to people as "idiots" for crashing in one of the most difficult starts in motorsports.
So in your opinion this guys are idiots:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKxLTVMbhUE
This guys are top athletes  driving million dollar cars with huge responsability.



In monza SOMETHING goes wrong and it becomes a wreckfest, theres simply no place to go. If you guys start banning everyone who makes a mistake, the servers will be empty in 2 weeks (you all included). 

I'm a careful guy, more so in starts, and I know that sometimes shit happens. And sometimes I fuck up that's how it is (I fuckup up badly in the last zandvoort race I was in for example).
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#29
In real life there are consequences for driving badly. If we look beyond the physical danger, which nowadays is much diminished, you will find your self with out a drive if you keep crashing or make no improvements.

Here or SRS, unless you make a deliberate bad move you are unlikely to get banned.

Also there is no incentive to get better. Again in real life the better you get the more you can demand from your team. Since the dropping of restricted races, races where you need a minimum rating to join, why should people try and improve. I've even seen people comment that the rating and incident points are just internet numbers and mean nothing so should be ignored. My self I monitor my rating and incident points and I also set myself goals, like geting a higher rating than the next person with the same nationality.

I think removing tracks or cars because they are hard to race is a bad idea, you need to take it in to consideration when you race. In the last F40 race at Redbull ring, I was aware that people were likely to spin accelerating out of the hairpin, so always gave myself space to avoid them if they did and gained a number of places like that while also avoiding incidents.

Some of the hardest cars and tracks are the most fun to race. Maybe they should have a minimum rating to participate, but even that wont stop all the silly incidents that we see, just refer to the video link Jorge posted.
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#30
Lots to unpack there, Tim.

The ratings and incident points CAN be ignored because they don't have any real consequences (as you point out, no rating filter on races anymore, and incident averages are merely a run off category in the case of a championship tie). You set yourself little goals to compete with other people from the UK and the like. If that is what keeps you motivated to not drive like an ass and to get better, more power to you. I guess I'm lucky in that I can be motivated to not drive like an ass and get better all while paying no attention to a nebulously undefined Rating Number and a meaningless average of the number of times I get punted on turn 1.

Your analogy to F40s coming out of a hairpin isn't a great one in my opinion. No amount of consideration on the part of a careful and considerate driver is going to get them through Monza turn 1 in an open wheel car cleanly unless all of the stars align (or the server only has 6 people on it and/or you start in the very back). Which is why I created a thread about Monza specifically, and not "hard tracks". Monza isn't hard... just the first turn on the first lap.

I agree that minimum rating races won't stop silly incidents... but not because even professional drivers fuck up standing starts, but because if you are here long enough to not get banned, you'll be rated at 500 in a pretty short amount of time. That number is only a representation of participation, finish positions, and incident accumulation. It does not take consideration into consideration (outside of being banned, preventing the point total from further increasing).

In conclusion, Monza's turn 1 is too much for the average sim racer to handle... and with plenty of other tracks to choose from, maybe we should avoid it for the most part. There's probably other tracks that could be added to the list of "avoid for daily SRS races" but I think considering those on a case by case basis is the correct course. This thread is about Monza, though. Smile
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