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5 Golden Rules / Race Briefing
#21
Thanks again for all the constructive feedback. I think we are onto something very good here.

I would like to add that protests are taking a few weeks to process, which is understandable since SRS is a free service and hosts dozens of races everyday. That is why it is so important that we try to avoid incidents by providing more clear guidelines and applying self penalties, using protest only as a last resource.


(07-21-2019, 07:20 AM)James Blint Wrote:  - Look at your map/mirrors when going out of the pit in quali and people are on their hotlaps, ... 
- In similar way if you are on a outlap, get out of the way (there s no point not doing it, as your time won't count anyway)
- No need to fight on outlaps in general, the smart thing is to try to get space instead. ...
- Also in Quali if you did screw up your lap, get out of the way, if the guy behind is right on your bumper ...

If there s anything simple, illustrated, to go by and put in the guidelines, i would say those 3 would be a good start. I bet most of the incs happen like that, like 75%, and i also bet most of the drivers don't know about them.

Great points James, certainly worth including this as they indeed happen frequently, mostly due to lack of info in my opinion. Well at least that was my case, as once I left the pits and blocked another driver hotlap... He cursed me on the chat, which spoiled the fun of that race for me, and probably for him as well. Certainly could be avoided if this was explained on the regulations or briefing along with tips and recommendations. Now I use the race map to check other car positions relative to me. This is also very usefull when you return to the track after a crash, which should be another topic.

Those are great ilustrated examples and I also bet must drivers don't know that. I just miss the braking point relative position explanation, as this is where it all starts and seems to be the major disagreement point.

(07-21-2019, 02:06 PM)Simon Merritt Wrote:  I agree more in-depth rules and explanation would be helpful. I think alot of the time people make these silly calls due to a lack of experience and knowledge. A written guide along with a couple of instructional videos would be a massive help. Especially if it can be done in manner which forces new members to read and whatch before competing online.

Exactely!

(07-21-2019, 02:09 PM)Pawel Kusmierek Wrote:  
(07-21-2019, 03:29 AM)Luiz Lotito Wrote:  2- I was very surprised to see that this (divebombing) could be acceptable on online races, 
 
Actually it can vary in real life too. I am in a karting league where the rule is "front wheel to real wheel" in general, except on specific track where it is "any overlap"

The key word here is "online". Differently from real life races, online there is no risk of physical or financial harm so drivers are way more aggressive and divebombs are much more frequent requiring different rules. In real life races, our vision, sense of speed, response time (zero lag ping) and situation awareness are much better than on simulations, allowing more precise and close maneuvers. For example, I did many real life go kart races where I did not miss any braking point, while I usually miss at least a couple on each simulation race. 

(07-21-2019, 03:28 PM)Russell Sobie Wrote:  In online racing, it should probably be any overlap since  it is highly unlikely you'll be able to accurately assess what the server is actually seeing as far as relationship between cars. I pretty much just give a line to someone if Helicorsa lights up before I start my turn in.

You just solved the issue you pointed, bringing up a great idea. It is very hard to see where the other driver is during a dispute, so it should be officially recommended to use helicorsa or any similar app to help you choose your line on SRS races otherwise you will have major blind spots and cause many accidents. In my case, if I see in Helicorsa that the front of the other car has passed my rear (yellow warning), I leave space for him. If he is just behind me, I will take my normal line and hit the appex - if he dives in, we will crash. That's why it is critical that we know that rules are we playing by.


(07-21-2019, 06:52 PM)Maciek Sobczak Wrote:  Divebombing done with skill however, is both safe and makes one`s opponent stay marooned on the outside.

That is like saying that it is ok to drive drunk, as long as you don't cause any accident. Divebombing is never safe. Yes, some very skilled drivers can brake later and hold their inside line, and some have done that on me and I did not protest, but you got to earn the respect to break that rule and get away with it.


(07-21-2019, 07:18 PM)Pawel Kusmierek Wrote:  Out of curiosity, do you guys think this was a legal move or a divebomb (a defensive not offensive one, but still). From 0:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D-n_dUzEtM

First, we need to define dive bombing. As there seems to be no official definition, in my opinion it is: 
1-your car is behind the other car at the braking point  
2-you take the inside line and brake later than your normal braking point  
3-you are unable to hold the inside line throughout the corner 
4-you crash onto the other car on the outside line

So, we checked 1, 2 and 3, but cleared 4. However, the only reason there was no crash was because the other driver did brake more and earlier, giving away his position. That is why it is so important to make the rules clear: if the other driver was not expecting a dive bomb, he would go for the apex and you would crash onto him. 

That doens't mean I would protest on this one though, because there was no crash, it seemed to be a lot of fun and things can get rough towards the end of the race  Big Grin  .  I still think dive bombing, as a rule, should not be allowed.
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#22
(07-22-2019, 05:10 PM)Luiz Lotito Wrote:  First, we need to difine dive bombing. As there seems to be no official definition, in my opinion it is: 
1-your car is behind the other car at the braking point  
2-you take the inside line and brake later than your normal braking point  
3-you are unable to hold the inside line throughout the corner 
4-you crash onto the other car on the outside line

So, we checked 1, 2 and 3, but cleared 4. However, the only reason there was no crash was because the other driver did brake more and earlier, giving away his position. That is why it is so important to make the rules clear: if the other driver was not expecting a dive bomb, he would go for the apex and you would crash onto him. 

That doens't mean I would protest on this one though, because there was no crash, it seemed to be a lot of fun and things can get rough towards the end of the race  Big Grin  .  I still think dive bombing, as a rule, should not be allowed.


Thank you for this insight!

In my defense, I would also like to point out that

1. yes, but I never lost overlap (though of course it was FAR from "half a car"). Also, as you noticed, the guy in the green car chose an unusually early braking point.

2. and it was on purpose. I noticed before that he was a good and presumably experienced racer. My intention was to make him think that I will do a full divebomb and overshoot the corner, and I wanted him to plan to take advantage of that, and to switch to the inside line.  Which he did as evidenced by his early braking.  A (planned) surprise for him was the drift which allowed me to stay close enough to the inside so that he could not go there immediately. Note how he taps the brakes mid-corner.

3. yes, but I was still closer to the inside than to the outside throughout the corner, and I left him much space on the outside (and on the inside as well!).  He could have dropped his plan of switching to the inside and move to the outside instead, but he would have to make this decision mid-corner, when he was already committed to the switch and probably did not think or did not have time to think of making that change. If he did, he would be on the inside for the next corner and probably would have won it, especially that I lost speed from the drift.
Note that I only moved to the outside after the first corner, now going for the next corner's inside. He was well on my left by that time.
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#23
I had everything discussed here yesterday in the GT2 race, could make a list and check literally everything, the blocking while on outlap, silly battling in quali, no respect for blueflags at all. I even had a new one, because usually people just like to wreck in front of you, kinda used to this so i just take a breath and prepare for it to happen. No they had to find something new yesterday! one go to the pit put fresh tyres and try to race me in the last lap of a 1h race, i even avoided a divebomb in the last corner... This is like Kubica two laps down trying to race/wreck Hamilton in the last lap of the Red bull GP.

Truely a miracle i got away in this race with no incidents but others were not so lucky looking at the race results. I think at least 3rd died in traffic, I ve also seen some vengeance takedowns, really all the childish behaviors you can think of. So i don't know, filling protests for almost half of the grid? i m not sure, something must be in the air this month, im mostly doing 1h races and never seen one like that. Yet it was 3 splits and not even rookies in the split 1, people with 100 to 200 races that have no idea how to overtake, what is a blue flag, how to qualify, etc, etc..And i mean they probably do not know, until there s signup or server post that shows how to behave on a track.
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#24
At his point, I think we have all agreed that SRS could greatly benefit from a more detailed rules/guidelines covering the expected behavior on some specific situations. There is only one debatable rule (successfull dive bombing), but all other topics seem to be common sense.

Now might be the time to check with SRS Admin if they are open to revise the rules/guidelines on the official page. If yes, we can keep discussing and refining the proposal I am putting below (based on your inputs and other threads). But if not, there is no point in continuing.

So if the Admin is reading this, please share your perspective with us. If we don't get an answer here (undertandable as there are hundreds of threads) I will write to the contact email or follow any better advice on how to contact him that you guys provide here.

===================================================================================================

New proposed rules/guidelines:

Before registering on a SRS race, practice with that exact car/track until you get consistent lap times. It is ok if you are not as fast as the top drivers, as long as you have surpassed the erratic behavior of the initial practice with that combo.

We strongly recommend that you use Helicorsa, Crewchief or any other method that eliminates your blind spots, otherwise it will be very dificult to know where your opponent is relative to you, and you might cause some accidents. You can find some apps with instructions here (link to be inserted)

- Qualifying:
Use your map/mirrors/crewchief while leaving the pit to check for traffic, specially on tracks where the pit exits in the middle of turn 1. Same applies during all your outlap (the lap you exit the pit, which doesn't count) or when you make a mistake and know that this lap will not help your position: give way to drivers hotlaping just behind you. And never race other drivers during qualifying - if there is one in front of you, slow down before the lap starts to have some space.

- Race:
Be extra carefull in turn 1. It is very hard to win a race in T1, but very easy to loose it. One mistake there can crash multiple cars.
You need to pass the rear of the other car on the straight to earn the right to dispute on the braking*. Don't dive bomb. Click here to learn more (link to be inserted)
Always give space to the opponent beside you. Don't cut or push him out of the track trying to keep your ideal race line - you have to adjust. 
If you accidentally hit another car during a dispute, give back your position to prevent a protest.
Respect yellow and blue flags. Don't dispute with drivers with more laps than you.
If you spin, check and wait for traffic clearance before returning to the track. Don't cause another crash! And never drive the wrong way.
If you have to slow down for a penalty, do it without blocking those behind you.
After the finish line, incidents are still counting, so don't crash other drivers while celebrating.

* this is the debatable topic, but once we agree on the rule, there should be a video with many examples of dos and dont's.
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#25
(07-23-2019, 08:12 PM)Luiz Lotito Wrote:  - Race:
Be extra carefull in turn 1. It is very hard to win a race in T1, but very easy to lose it. One mistake there can crash multiple cars.
You need to pass the rear of the other car on the straight to earn the right to dispute on the braking*. Don't dive bomb. Click here to learn more (link to be inserted)
Always give space to the opponent beside you. Don't cut or push him out of the track trying to keep your ideal race line - you have to adjust. 
If you accidentally hit another car during a dispute, consider giving back the position... this might prevent a protest against you.

Bolded my suggested changes. Everything else? (thumbsup)
Tutorial on how to use Autodesk Mudbox and Adobe Photoshop to make custom liveries! https://tinyurl.com/yaetz4qz
Grab my PDash Skins (an Assetto Corsa HUD app) here: https://tinyurl.com/y95ewubz
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#26
Good summary post Luiz. I don't hold my breath but i think this would be the least amount of hurdles for SRS admins to put this up and could really improve the experience of everyone in the long run. Often the simplest solutions are the best.
Let's say it gets posted as well on the server, people might not read it the first time but after 50 times clicking "ok" to get into lobby eventually it will get imprinted into their head, like a daily reminder.
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#27
(07-24-2019, 07:33 PM)James Blint Wrote:  Good summary post Luiz. I don't hold my breath but i think this would be the least amount of hurdles for SRS admins to put this up and could really improve the experience of everyone in the long run. Often the simplest solutions are the best.
Let's say it gets posted as well on the server, people might not read it the first time but after 50 times clicking "ok" to get into lobby eventually it will get imprinted into their head, like a daily reminder.

+1
NEVER GIVE UP!
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#28
(07-22-2019, 05:10 PM)Luiz Lotito Wrote:  
(07-21-2019, 06:52 PM)Maciek Sobczak Wrote:  Divebombing done with skill however, is both safe and makes one`s opponent stay marooned on the outside.

That is like saying that it is ok to drive drunk, as long as you don't cause any accident. Divebombing is never safe. Yes, some very skilled drivers can brake later and hold their inside line, and some have done that on me and I did not protest, but you got to earn the respect to break that rule and get away with it.


(07-21-2019, 07:18 PM)Pawel Kusmierek Wrote:  Out of curiosity, do you guys think this was a legal move or a divebomb (a defensive not offensive one, but still). From 0:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D-n_dUzEtM

First, we need to define dive bombing. As there seems to be no official definition, in my opinion it is: 
1-your car is behind the other car at the braking point  
2-you take the inside line and brake later than your normal braking point  
3-you are unable to hold the inside line throughout the corner 
4-you crash onto the other car on the outside line

So, we checked 1, 2 and 3, but cleared 4. However, the only reason there was no crash was because the other driver did brake more and earlier, giving away his position. That is why it is so important to make the rules clear: if the other driver was not expecting a dive bomb, he would go for the apex and you would crash onto him.

Yes, precisely because this is a video game we play. I did drive in few SRS endurance seriesraces while being drunk and completed all of them with incident count below 4. I did not ruin anyone`s race. So it is perfectly possible.So for divebombing you need to make your mind up. Is it legal or not. Because there should be no place for discussion here. If you did not understand my post then again I`m telling you.

If divebombing is legal as a rule then it should entirely depend on the end result of an individual divebomb maneuver whether a certain divebomb was illegal. Simple to resolve a protest.

If divebombing is illegal as a rule then any and all such individual maneuvers are illegal. Simple to resolve a protest.
See you on track ~S!~ Big Grin
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#29
(07-25-2019, 03:24 PM)Maciek Sobczak Wrote:  Yes, precisely because this is a video game we play. I did drive in few SRS endurance seriesraces  while being drunk and completed all of them with incident count below 4. I did not ruin anyone`s race. So it is perfectly possible.So for divebombing you need to make your mind up. Is it legal or not. Because there should be no place for discussion here. If you did not understand my post then again I`m telling you.

If divebombing is legal as a rule then it should entirely depend on the end result of an individual divebomb maneuver whether a certain divebomb was illegal. Simple to resolve a protest.

If divebombing is illegal as a rule then any and all such individual maneuvers are illegal. Simple to resolve a protest.

I do my best laps after 2 glasses of wine. And I am pretty sure we are not the only ones. Rest assured I will not propose any alcohol regulation here Wink . My metaphor was referring to real life driving on public roads, which does require more restrictive rules.

I agree divebombing should be either banned or permitted, but again, it only makes sense to discuss this if the Admin says he is open to revise the rules.
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#30
(07-25-2019, 03:24 PM)Maciek Sobczak Wrote:  I did drive in few SRS endurance series races  while being drunk

Smh...
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