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5 Golden Rules / Race Briefing
#11
(07-21-2019, 03:29 AM)Luiz Lotit Wrote:  2- I was very surprised to see that this could be acceptable on online races, 
 
Actually it can vary in real life too. I am in a karting league where the rule is "front wheel to real wheel" in general, except on specific track where it is "any overlap"
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#12
In online racing, it should probably be any overlap since it is highly unlikely you'll be able to accurately assess what the server is actually seeing as far as relationship between cars. I pretty much just give a line to someone if Helicorsa lights up before I start my turn in.
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#13
(07-19-2019, 10:44 AM)Russell Sobie Wrote:  
Quote:"Braking early" isn't what the front of the pack needs to do... it's what the rest of the pack needs to do... the further back in the pack, the earlier you need to brake. Beginners don't typically understand how a slow turn actually works in a crowd; they approach the turn like they do any hotlap and end up finding a lot of solid objects in their path for some reason.
One can be a beginner and run full race grid T1s safely. I`ve seen new people do it plenty of times by easing it in even while losing positions. Others want to gain positions at T1 while they don`t have the skills. They get reported and receive suspensions.





Quote:Sure, but I think that's what he is getting at. Currently the rules as stated means that dive bombing is perfectly legal and those on the outside in a dive bomb situation are required to suddenly give space on the inside even though they are likely not going to be able to at the last moment. Pick whatever overlap rules you want but then make them explicit for each series, or more conveniently, for all series on SRS.

Explicit rules are good for so many reasons, but being able to point to a rule and say "This guy did that thing that the rules say he can't, and so should receive a penalty/reprimand." Currently it's "well, this guy broke this rule that F1 has and ended up hitting me, so here's a video of him doing it, what do you think?" and then waiting around for a few weeks for the guy to MAYBE understand why he just got suspended for a month.
To any and everyone taking part in SRS it should be clear from the start that divebombing is legal until you run into the guy in front of you. It is 100% your responsibility to make divembombing stick with no collision. SRS admin gives penalty to divebombers who hit their opponents. That is a good bullet point since many people don`t understand what divebombing is.

Divebombing done with skill however, is both safe and makes one`s opponent stay marooned on the outside.

Quote:Yeah, I wouldn't want a rule for this either. I will make the decision to wait and give the spot back if 1) I know it was my fault and 2) less than 2-3 cars are going to pass both of us while I'm waiting. But that should be entirely my call at the moment of the incident. I will say that I'm likely to never file a protest against someone if they give the spot back... so for your own benefit I'd say if you just did something that warrants a suspension (like full on t-boning someone at a chicane) giving the spot back might let you keep racing in the long run. Wink
SRS admin does not treat position giveaway as grounds for dismissing a report, and rightfully so. If you tboned your opponent or ran into his door, you get a suspension.
See you on track ~S!~ Big Grin
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#14
(07-21-2019, 06:52 PM)Maciek Sobczak Wrote:  'To any and everyone taking part in SRS it should be clear from the start that divebombing is legal until you run into the guy in front of you. It is 100% your responsibility to make divembombing stick with no collision. SRS admin gives penalty to divebombers who hit their opponents. That is a good bullet point since many people don`t understand what divebombing is.

I cannot fully agree. Divebombing is by definition dangerous and illegal, even if there was no contact and everyone stayed on the track somehow. Your view puts the driver in the front in a position with no good output. Either he continues turning in, contacts the divebomber and possibly loses the entire race. Or he does not turn in, screws up the turn and loses the position to the divebomber who did not have the right to gaining the position.

Unless you are talking about the driver in the back being able to place enough of their car on the inside before the front car's turn in, but then it's not divebombing in my opinion.



Out of curiosity, do you guys think this was a legal move or a divebomb (a defensive not offensive one, but still). From 0:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D-n_dUzEtM
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#15
I'd go so far as to say I fully disagree with Maciek. Either he doesn't know what a divebomb is, or he's part of the element of competitive racing no one really wants to race with. Big Grin

If someone dive bombs me and I see it coming I'll make a decision at that moment whether or not I'm going to allow it and try to avoid, or just continue the turn into the apex I'm allowed to take and take the t-bone (and then dust off my video editor software). Typically my current placement in the current race, the number of races in that series I plan on doing in a given week, and whether or not I even recognize the name of the driver doing the dive bomb on how I decide. Truth be told I've specifically taken t-bones from divebombers I KNEW I never wanted to race with specifically to have video evidence of them being an asshat.

So yeah... if you want to try one of those "legal" divebombs on me, feel free. I do all this for fun, but I do take my protesting seriously. Smile

P.S. I didn't see anything untoward in that video, Pawel. I'm assuming you are referring to the turn where he drifts to keep it on the track? Not a move I'd have tried, but then again, I probably would have just kept a tight inside line forcing you to stay on the outside and not bothered going sideways. Then it'd be your responsibility to leave me the space and likely have to slow down to do so. Then just move over to the right, hug the inside for the next turn, and there'd have been no possible way to get by.

The only way this would be considered a divebomb is if they simply didn't have the overlap before your turn in... but they did so you've got to leave him space anyway (even if he's going to almost lose control).
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#16
(07-21-2019, 08:19 PM)Russell Sobie Wrote:  I'd go so far as to say I fully disagree with Maciek.

I want to be gentle.. ;-)  I suspect the reason for the disagreement is at least partially due to different understanding of the word.

(07-21-2019, 08:19 PM)Russell Sobie Wrote:  P.S. I didn't see anything untoward in that video, Pawel. I'm assuming you are referring to the turn where he drifts to keep it on the track? Not a move I'd have tried, but then again, I probably would have just kept a tight inside line forcing you to stay on the outside and not bothered going sideways. Then it'd be your responsibility to leave me the space and likely have to slow down to do so. Then just move over to the right, hug the inside for the next turn, and there'd have been no possible way to get by.

The only way this would be considered a divebomb is if they simply didn't have the overlap before your turn in... but they did so you've got to leave him space anyway (even if he's going to almost lose control).

I am glad that you see nothing wrong in the video.  Because it was me who was drifting in the black momo car Big Grin . I just recorded the video from the other guy's view to show the entirety of the situation.  This was almost the end of the race, I was desperate to defend this position (which I almost lost by making a mistake in the previous exit) by all legal means.  My thinking was: if I brake early, he will just pass me on the outside, and also will have the inside line for the next corner, and I am screwed. If I brake late and try to turn normally, he will switch to the inside, I will be VERY far on the outside or even out of track, and he will pass me anyway.. So I purposefully braked very late, so that a drift was the only way to stay within the track and even close to the middle of it, and it worked. I was surprised it did as I have very little experience with drifting  Smile . But the car, a GT86 but with 365HP, is made for drifting.
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#17
(07-21-2019, 08:19 PM)Russell Sobie Wrote:  I'd go so far as to say I fully disagree with Maciek. Either he doesn't know what a divebomb is, or he's part of the element of competitive racing no one really wants to race with. Big Grin

If someone dive bombs me and I see it coming I'll make a decision at that moment whether or not I'm going to allow it and try to avoid, or just continue the turn into the apex I'm allowed to take and take the t-bone (and then dust off my video editor software). Typically my current placement in the current race, the number of races in that series I plan on doing in a given week, and whether or not I even recognize the name of the driver doing the dive bomb on how I decide. Truth be told I've specifically taken t-bones from divebombers I KNEW I never wanted to race with specifically to have video evidence of them being an asshat.

Nah, not my field of work, so to say. But I do see that the term is a classic grey area. Because the guy behind you would gain overlap 0,2sec before turn in or 0,2sec after it. The first is not divebombing by your saying, the second is although time difference is 0,4s. Or he does it from 20m away or 2m away. Questionable stuff you don`t really think about when racing.

Racing is made by several of such grey areas. Thus again, I vouch for the end result as to who point as the responsible for an incident.
See you on track ~S!~ Big Grin
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#18
How about making incidents on a first lap count times 3? Or for example every incident could be counted like this: 1st - 0.5 point, 2nd - .75, 3rd - 1, 4th 1,5, 5th - 2 and so on? I wish there was at least a way to just punish a guy that had higher speed during an accident, that would work right at least 95% examples.
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#19
Except for all the ones that are blatant (serving penalties in the racing line, intentionally wrecking, going backwards... stuff like that.). There really is not a way to do it without someone literally serving as steward. No sim is going to be good enough at being fun for us to play AND have the smarts enough to know who is at fault for collisions enough of the time to bother trying.
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#20
If there s anything simple, illustrated, to go by and put in the guidelines, i would say those 3 would be a good start. I bet most of the incs happen like that, like 75%, and i also bet most of the drivers don't know about them.


A. Attacker more than half-way alongside
[Image: f1_apex_a.png]

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.



B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

[Image: f1_apex_b.png]

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.




C. Attacker approximately half-way alongside

[Image: f1_apex_c.png]

In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur.
It is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner  — this method is called dive-bombing.


Now this isn't to say incidents should never happen like this, sometimes it's just honest mistakes (altough stewards and race directors wouldn't care about that) but at least people should be aware what is the right thing to do or avoid doing.
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