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5 Golden Rules / Race Briefing
#41
It is funny how the most obvious rules are the ones folks tend to forget to specify. Smile
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#42
Sad 
I sent a message to the SRS Admin and he answered. 

He agrees that rules could be more complete but unfortunately, it wouldn't change the drivers' behaviour as the few listed on the regulation page and at the server entrance are simply ignored. He said that the suggestion has been noted though.

I will take this as a very polite "no", at least for now. 

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions - It was great to see some different point of views.
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#43
One of my personal biggest pet peeve in sim racing is when people crash and instead of just holding their car so people can drive around them they try to instantly get back into the race. Whenever i crash, doesn't matter if it was my fault or not, and i get stuck in the middle of the track turned the wrong way around and i have half the grid coming from behind i just sit there and wait for everybody to pass even if that means i cant get back into the race until im all the way last.

In short some rule that specifies safe re-entries after crashes and off-tracks. .


Also slightly off topic, i looked at how submitting a protest works and think require someone to upload a video is a bit of a hurdle, maybe intentionally to make sure people dont over submit protest, but wouldn't it be easier to just submit the timestamp ,drivers involved and a description of what happened and admin use the race replay to check it out? Maybe limit the amount of protest people can submit to make sure people dont over use the system for every small incident.
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#44
(08-03-2019, 02:58 PM)Thomas Chevalier Wrote:  One of my personal biggest pet peeve in sim racing is when people crash and instead of just holding their car so people can drive around them they try to instantly get back into the race.
That's because you race in SRS. In open public simracing, you are actually happy if people go back on track too eagerly and don't do worse thing. Because usually you have to deal with outright blocking, pushing you off track while you pass, or with backmarkers who have "fun" trying to ram all passing cars



(08-03-2019, 02:58 PM)Thomas Chevalier Wrote:  Whenever i crash, doesn't matter if it was my fault or not, and i get stuck in the middle of the track turned the wrong way around and i have half the grid coming from behind i just sit there and wait for everybody to pass even if that means i cant get back into the race until im all the way last.

Which is the right thing to do. If you are good, you can still make up for that, es evidence by one of the best ever racing videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw5dk8Xbi4
The guy started in P1, dropped to P3 on start, was punted off the track in T2, waited until the field passes, rejoned in P30, later hit a spun car, and still finished P4.

I try to do it as well, here I lost about 8 positions because after a spinout I waited patiently until all traffic comes by (at 0:40)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NErK7WGpOvY




(08-03-2019, 02:58 PM)Thomas Chevalier Wrote:  Also slightly off topic, i looked at how submitting a protest works and think require someone to upload a video is a bit of a hurdle, maybe intentionally to make sure people dont over submit protest, but wouldn't it be easier to just submit the timestamp ,drivers involved and a description of what happened and admin use the race replay to check it out?
As far as we know, there is only one admin, who is already overwhelmed by analyzing protests, as evidenced by processing time exceeding 1 month. If you put more burden on him, it will get even worse. I think it's the person filing a protest who should spend time isolating the incident, finding informative camera angles, etc. Not the admin.
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#45
Quote:As far as we know, there is only one admin, who is already overwhelmed by analyzing protests, as evidenced by processing time exceeding 1 month. If you put more burden on him, it will get even worse. I think it's the person filing a protest who should spend time isolating the incident, finding informative camera angles, etc. Not the admin.

If there really is only one admin doing it that is even a bigger problem really if SRS is meant to grow and get better and be taken serious. I get its a free service and we should be grateful for that and i am but it does sound like a organizational issue if only 1 person is doing protests and already swamp under that task and it taking a month for protest to be resolved. I am not saying this because i feel entitled to some sort of service but because i want to see SRS succeed and i am worried that if only 1 person is carrying all that weight it might fail.

That person already being overtaxed also isn't a valid argument though for not having a simpler and easier to use protest system. A time stamp and description of a incident and using the replay to check it out should only be a minuscule difference if not quicker than watching a uploaded video as you can quickly check the needed angles the way you like instead of a potently biased view that the person submitting a video is showing. Also as i said i my previous post i do believe a system that is easier use would also need a limit to the amount of protest one can file to make sure admin dont get flooded and people carefully choose the incident they submit.
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#46
(08-04-2019, 12:16 AM)Thomas Chevalier Wrote:  That person already being overtaxed also isn't a valid argument though for not having a simpler and easier to use protest system. A time stamp and description of a incident and using the replay to check it out should only be a minuscule difference if not quicker than watching a uploaded video as you can quickly check the needed angles the way you like instead of a potently biased view that the person submitting a video is showing.

I think we can safely assume that he is a smart person, and such he thought of this option, maybe even tested it, and figured it does not work for him.  As you said, he would need to check and select various angles. Now he doesn't, if he can't decide with the angles selected by the protester, he just responds "Verdict: Invalid protest. Camera angle does not allows us to rule."  

Also for your method to work the admin would have to store all replays and also every time load the replay to watch it.  I am sure you have noticed that loading a replay in game takes quite a while, probably 2-3 minutes if not more. In some games you can't even jump to specific time, you have to fast forward.  Starting an online video takes a second and you can jump to any time.  



(08-04-2019, 12:16 AM)Thomas Chevalier Wrote:  Also as i said i my previous post i do believe a system that is easier use would also need a limit to the amount of protest one can file to make sure admin dont get flooded and people carefully choose the incident they submit.
So you are admitting that your system is actually flawed because it needs another mechanism to limit the number of protests, while the current system basically takes care of that automatically.
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#47
(08-04-2019, 12:56 AM)Pawel Kusmierek Wrote:  I think we can safely assume that he is a smart person, and such he thought of this option, maybe even tested it, and figured it does not work for him.  As you said, he would need to check and select various angles. Now he doesn't, if he can't decide with the angles selected by the protester, he just responds "Verdict: Invalid protest. Camera angle does not allows us to rule."  

Also for your method to work the admin would have to store all replays and also every time load the replay to watch it.  I am sure you have noticed that loading a replay in game takes quite a while, probably 2-3 minutes if not more. In some games you can't even jump to specific time, you have to fast forward.  Starting an online video takes a second and you can jump to any time.  

I hadn't noticed replays take time to load. I have mine on a SSD so it pretty much instant. If replays on HDD are indeed that much slower than that might indeed be a issue and hadn't thought of that and storing replays on SDD would get pretty expensive and not viable for SRS.

Also I am sure he's a smart person not denying that, i'm just making a suggestion i believe would be a improvement to the SRS experience. But if we are going with 'well he's a smart person' to every suggestion we might well close the suggestion part of the forum as we wont need it any more. 


Quote:So you are admitting that your system is actually flawed because it needs another mechanism to limit the number of protests, while the current system basically takes care of that automatically.

I dont see how that is flaw in my system. Both systems limit the number of protest but one is easier to use for the end user while making sure people dont protest willy nilly.

Any way i have taking this post off topic long enough so should probably stop. :p You made some valid points like load time being a issue with HDD, unlike my personal experience with SSD and it making it a lot harder for SRS staff to check replays with those load times.
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#48
(08-04-2019, 12:56 AM)Pawel Kusmierek Wrote:  I think we can safely assume that he is a smart person, and such he thought of this option, maybe even tested it, and figured it does not work for him. 

As far as we know, there is only one admin, who is already overwhelmed by analyzing protests, as evidenced by processing time exceeding 1 month. If you put more burden on him, it will get even worse. I think it's the person filing a protest who should spend time isolating the incident, finding informative camera angles, etc. Not the admin.  

I totally agree with Pawel on this. 

But I can only hope he is not doing this alone. It would make more sense to invite a few experienced racers to help (anyone who does not consider divebombing legal  Tongue).
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#49
I'm pretty sure it is just Henrique doing the evaluation. And the way that he's set up the protest form (name of drivers in a pull down, lap number, URL to streamed video) makes it trivial for him to click on a list of links, watch the video, and then probably press a button to implement a verdict (which hopefully handles the suspension/banning as well as sending the PM to the protester all in one go). There's no way he's going to want to fumble around with AC's garbage replay GUI.

Quote:But if we are going with 'well he's a smart person' to every suggestion we might well close the suggestion part of the forum as we wont need it any more.  

You might be onto something here. In my time at SRS, I can't say that many (if any?) of the suggestions posted in this subforum have been implemented. I think this place works just as Henrique wants it to. There's a bunch of stuff I would personally do differently. But one thing that one gets from being the only one actually doing the work is that you get to control the entire vision of the project without having to please any other individual. And that even includes the userbase (you know... us.).
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#50
The protests are not done just by Henrique, they're done by some community members too, as stated in a video a random callsign made: https://youtu.be/7HSvcgkk4oE?t=150

There you can see that whole point of SRS (from techincal POV) is that it can be run by one person. Everything is pretty much automated, and already set up the way he wants it to be. Could it be better? Probably. Is it bad the way it is? IMO, not at all. Some minor things I would set up differently, like qualifying starting at 95-6%, same number of incidents for 20 min races as for 1h and smaller stuff like that...

The Protest Form and the way protests are submitted, I wouldn't touch almost at all. Even though there are multiple "stewards" it would still be more work to open a replay, find the timestamp, click through all the drivers to find the one submitting it, find the other guy, and watch it from their perspectives. Multiply that by the number of incidents per race, and number of races per day, and that number gets very big, very fast. Just for an example, in F3, I submit 2 reports per race on average. It's by far the biggest so far in my "career" at SRS, usually it was 2-3 per season. And bear in mind that I'm not somebody who reports every little contact or "illegal" move, just major stuff. There are probably people who protest far less infractions. The point I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of incidents, like in every race, and lot of incidents means that the time it takes to analyze all of that multiply exponentially. 10 extra seconds in one place might mean an hour at the end of a day. The stewards have to watch every protest carefully, they don't know if it's bullshit or valid. They have to take time to treat everything equally. And limiting a number of protest a driver can submit makes no sense. If it's a smaller number (let's say 2), you're at risk of forcing a driver to drop one valid if he's unlucky enough to have more (3+) in one race, if it's a larger limit, it makes no difference.

The way it's now, the person submitting protest takes all the workload and the steward only clicks link, watch 2-3 minutes of footage and brings the verdict. Judging by the "automated" nature of verdicts I've received for the protests I've submitted, I'm guessing that that part is pretty much automated too, like Pawel said. They probably just select the verdict (warning, racing incident, length of suspension...) and the reason (unsafe rejoin, dangerous driving...) and the system takes care of everything else. After all, IMO, if you're the one pointing finger at somebody and asking for their punishment, you should be the one providing evidence. And I think the part of a reason that's set up this way is to give a driver a chance to look at the incident few more times, from few more angles. Maybe he'll realize that it's racing incident, or even his fault. I know I've dropped out few reports because when I looked it from the outside or other guy's POV, I've seen that it's not the same as it looks from my cockpit.

And then there's a whole matter of storing all those replays. With the settings I'm using, it takes about .5 GB for one 20 min race. Sure, you can probably go even lower, but let's say .5. There are, what, 25-30 20 mins a day, and 2-5 1h? That's like 15-20 gigs a day. By itself, not much, but it accumulates pretty easy. Especially when you have in mind that it would have to be some sort of cloud based storage, so that every steward can access it.

I would go in line with increasing the number of stewards, though. 4-6 weeks is just too much to have any effect. I would say that it shouldn't be more than two weeks. Maybe have a public thread where people could apply, give selected few some test cases and decide if they'll fit the team or not. But than again, if Henrique really wanted to expand the number of stewards, chances are that we probably would. 

And to end on "on topic" topic, great job in proposing rules adjustments, but I'm afraid that was probably an expected response. And the sad thing is that it's the most logical one. How does that saying go, you can lead a horse to a water, but you can't make it drink? As I've stated in other thread, people who read the rules, are usually (I would go even for 99% of the time) not the one who need them. You can make all the posts with regulations, send them daily, put it as the MOTD on the server, but the chances are that they won't even bother to read it. Literally 3 rules would be enough, if people would actually care for them: 1) use your eyes, 2) use your brain, 3) use your brakes/steering.
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