[Max Teel]

Hi Pete

I'm not one of the fastest drivers, especially with this car. However, the way you describe the car as being on soap might be a clue to the difference in speed. I know that with certain car/corner combinations, there is a way of entering and exiting corners that is far quicker, but requires very precise feel as to what the car is doing - and is about to do!

*caveat here: I'm open to being corrected on any of what I'm about to say, I'm no expert!*

The first key is the transfer from coming off the brakes, whilst turning in (trail-braking)... if done correctly and with absolute millisecond precision, this can cause the car to slightly 'spin around' towards the apex... this slight drift/spin can be help on approach to apex in such a way as to allow earlier straightening of the car ready for the exit of the turn, and therefore earlier application of the throttle. The issue here is of course that if you get it slightly wrong, you'll either spin around, or go sliding way off the edge of the track.
The reason I believe when done correctly this is where you might be losing time, is that the above way of approaching corners is different to: "brake, turn-in, apply throttle". With the latter approach, it simply isn't possible for the car to feel so "alive", so therefore might feel "soapy".

When a corner is hit perfectly, the tyres are at the edge of adhesion through all phases of the corner. This is where the real skill of some drivers comes in, they know how to control this 'almost-out-of-control' sensation through not just one corner, but the entire lap.


I'm interested to know if that made any sense, or if anyone can correct me where I'm wrong!

[Simon Meisinger]

edit: oh damn, there are two other pages I didn't see. I though Max started this thread, so this might not make a lot of sense, haha

I assume this is a PM to another driver who asked you how you can be so much faster than he is?

I think you're describing it pretty well, I'd also add that you have to let go off the brakes gently as releasing the brake in one sudden movement unsettles the car and that braking doesn't just slow down the car but also puts pressure on the front wheels which results in better grip at the front and less grip at the rear, while applying the throttle does the opposite. At least I couldn't figure those two things out myself but needed somebody to tell me that

Two great videos about this are "Brakes are (not) for stopping" by Empty Box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXPSj56lavE
And Jacky Stewart about driving a car smoothly and fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-jAk-i5A_s

[Martin Smith]

No. No. No and no again, my friends. This morning, nice and fresh, I did 20 laps, really, really focusing on what was happening from lap to lap.
Apart from a couple of inevitable crashes, ALL the laps were between 14:5 and 15.2. This - it seems to me - confirms that I am  certainly not the fastest guy around, but I know what I am doing and I can be quite consistent.
Now, a couple of important remarks:
1) At this speed, the car feels like on soap. It feels always at the limit of flying away. That is, I am not consistent by being conservative, I am consistent at what I perceive as the limit of the car. 
And, more importantly:
2) Like always, inevitable variations of line from lap to lap lead to inevitable swings in the delta bar. BUT what I would gain or lose would be one, two, maybe three tenths. Over a lap, things average out, so I am consistent between 14.5 and 15.2. NO WAY ON EARTH I could get a second here, a second there. This is inconceivable. 
Come on the throttle earlier? Been there, done that (maybe even only by chance): result, a couple of tenths gained. Trail braking when possible? Same story, a tenth, may be two or three. I observed carefully and I have seen it happening, lap after lap, and I remain with the the bottom line question.
WHERE THE HELL DOES ONE GET SIX SECONDS?

If you can't come to terms with the math adding up to six seconds, look at it this way...

Your laptimes equate to an average speed of 194.22 km/h for the fast guy and 186.372 km/h for you given a track length of 7 km. So over the lap he's averaging about 8km/h more than you.

Now look at your respective speeds in the comparison vid.

At the braking point for La Source he's 215 and you're 213 - 2 km/h
At the apex he's doing 72 and you're doing 68 - 4 km/h
At the top of the hill he's at 231 and you're at 224 - 7 km/h
Top speed as you said is 241 versus 235 - 6 km/h
Through Les Combes he's doing 147 at the first apex, you're doing 131 - 16 km/h
At the apex of the left hander he's at 145 and you're at 140 - 5 km/h
At the last apex he's doing 165 and you're doing 151 - 14 km/h

If you carry this through the whole track an average difference of 8 km/h is very conceivable. Remember also, my experience is that the replay under-reports the speed of opponents so the speed differences at each point are likely greater by a few km/h.

[James Blint]

We are all experiencing this anyway, often when i try a new combo even on a track i know well, im usually a couple seconds away from the best times, then you get your marks right after a few laps, you start to get a hang of the car and what it is able to do or not, you make a few adjustments to the setup , so on and so forth.. At first you quickly shave off like 2 seconds, then one second, then..half a second, and if you hit the magic everywhere maybe a few tenths more but this is the same process for everybody. I would say some are more gifted to actually evaluate where they can go faster and how to do so but we are all starting quite slow.

[Pete Parisetti]

No. No. No and no again, my friends. This morning, nice and fresh, I did 20 laps, really, really focusing on what was happening from lap to lap.
Apart from a couple of inevitable crashes, ALL the laps were between 14:5 and 15.2. This - it seems to me - confirms that I am  certainly not the fastest guy around, but I know what I am doing and I can be quite consistent.
Now, a couple of important remarks:
1) At this speed, the car feels like on soap. It feels always at the limit of flying away. That is, I am not consistent by being conservative, I am consistent at what I perceive as the limit of the car. 
And, more importantly:
2) Like always, inevitable variations of line from lap to lap lead to inevitable swings in the delta bar. BUT what I would gain or lose would be one, two, maybe three tenths. Over a lap, things average out, so I am consistent between 14.5 and 15.2. NO WAY ON EARTH I could get a second here, a second there. This is inconceivable. 
Come on the throttle earlier? Been there, done that (maybe even only by chance): result, a couple of tenths gained. Trail braking when possible? Same story, a tenth, may be two or three. I observed carefully and I have seen it happening, lap after lap, and I remain with the the bottom line question.
WHERE THE HELL DOES ONE GET SIX SECONDS?

If you can't come to terms with the math adding up to six seconds, look at it this way...

Your laptimes equate to an average speed of 194.22 km/h for the fast guy and 186.372 km/h for you given a track length of 7 km. So over the lap he's averaging about 8km/h more than you.

Now look at your respective speeds in the comparison vid.

At the braking point for La Source he's 215 and you're 213 - 2 km/h
At the apex he's doing 72 and you're doing 68 - 4 km/h
At the top of the hill he's at 231 and you're at 224 - 7 km/h
Top speed as you said is 241 versus 235 - 6 km/h
Through Les Combes he's doing 147 at the first apex, you're doing 131 - 16 km/h
At the apex of the left hander he's at 145 and you're at 140 - 5 km/h
At the last apex he's doing 165 and you're doing 151 - 14 km/h

If you carry this through the whole track an average difference of 8 km/h is very conceivable. Remember also, my experience is that the replay under-reports the speed of opponents so the speed differences at each point are likely greater by a few km/h.

Great analysis Martin - exactly the case in point. As I said previously "I saw this comparing telemetry in Iracing: my line is within inches of the other guy, I feel absolutely at the limit, and the other guy is several miles per hour faster mid corner, carries more speed and obviously gains time. 

This is exactly the issue: how do faster people keep the car on track when I have the feeling of driving on soap? When I look at their videos and when I look at the fine details of telemetry, it seems to me they are driving a different car."

---

Hi Pete

I'm not one of the fastest drivers, especially with this car. However, the way you describe the car as being on soap might be a clue to the difference in speed. I know that with certain car/corner combinations, there is a way of entering and exiting corners that is far quicker, but requires very precise feel as to what the car is doing - and is about to do!

*caveat here: I'm open to being corrected on any of what I'm about to say, I'm no expert!*

The  first key is the transfer from coming off the brakes, whilst turning in (trail-braking)... if done correctly and with absolute millisecond precision, this can cause the car to slightly 'spin around' towards the apex... this slight drift/spin can be help on approach to apex in such a way as to allow earlier straightening of the car ready for the exit of the turn, and therefore earlier application of the throttle. The issue here is of course that if you get it slightly wrong, you'll either spin around, or go sliding way off the edge of the track.
The reason I believe when done correctly this is where you might be losing time, is that the above way of approaching corners is different to: "brake, turn-in, apply throttle". With the latter approach, it simply isn't possible for the car to feel so "alive", so therefore might feel "soapy".

When a corner is hit perfectly, the tyres are at the edge of adhesion through all phases of the corner. This is where the real skill of some drivers comes in, they know how to control this 'almost-out-of-control' sensation through not just one corner, but the entire lap.


I'm interested to know if that made any sense, or if anyone can correct me where I'm wrong!

YES, Max, this is the only real difference (obviously apart from speed) I could notice when comparing telemetry on Iracing - the yaw angle. Faster guys have greater yaw angles. The bottom line question is how to do that. Not all corners allow for trail braking, and looking at telemetry even the fast guys don't always trail brake. Yet, they come into the corner with more yaw. The steering input must be determinant too, but the technique (or combination thereof) remains a mystery to me.

[Giuseppe Iaria]

It's in part because of the setup and in part it's a matter of mere practice,
Formula cars react massively different to setup changes, you can shave easily seconds with few "clicks", particularly wings.
F3 cars in particular are lightweight and low power, so in general it's important to keep the car as fast as possible mid corner ---> try to first increase front and rear wing, then reduce only rear until you feel the car enough stable. Keep in mind that Spa is a low aero track, so to be fast you need few rear wing incidence.

[Pete Parisetti]

It's in part because of the setup and in part it's a matter of mere practice,
Formula cars react massively different to setup changes, you can shave easily seconds with few "clicks", particularly wings.
F3 cars in particular are lightweight and low power, so in general it's important to keep the car as fast as possible mid corner ---> try to first increase front and rear wing, then reduce only rear until you feel the car enough stable. Keep in mind that Spa is a low aero track, so to be fast you need few rear wing incidence.

Spot on Giuseppe! Before today's practice, before I read your post, I increased downpressure on front and also a little on rear, also increased a bit camber and toe at rear, and immediately shaved 6 tenths.

---

now 2nd run at 5th lap 2:13,5  but must not hit curbs, not overbrake and not spin in last schicane before finish line,  al small mistakes in lap makes 1s difference at final time,  the defaul setup not good for me, too nervous (overtsteers a lot  to speed 238   and the car bottoms at EauRouge which slow the car

i think that top times at RSR (2.08,1xx) is not with default

---

so next run 2:12,5  with possible 2:12 is not spin at lowest part of track

if you want my replay for comparsion send me your e-mail to PM

Michal, thanks for sending your lap. Today, with a little setup tweaks, I did 13.2. If I go below 13 I will be happy and stop annoying everybody! ;-)

[Dennis Ipenburg]

Since you're practising for tomorrow's F3 race, why would you make setup tweaks as tomorrow's race is with a fixed setup?

[Pete Parisetti]

Since you're practising for tomorrow's F3 race, why would you make setup tweaks as tomorrow's race is with a fixed setup?

Good question Dennis. I only wanted to see what difference little tweaks would make. Later today I'll go back to practicing with basic setup, preparing from my usual bottom place in the race! ;-)

[Michal Janak]

whati changeable in this fixed setup? brake balance? tyre presure?