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Too much contact on races
#11
I think Mr. Admin is probably bombarded with people giving him grief about the way he runs this completely free system in his spare time and just had a kneejerk reaction to your queries. Understandable, I suppose. It IS the Internet.

I, too, have yet to file a protest for anything, but not because I want to avoid getting people banned or anything... although given occasional poor turnout I could see it being a consideration. Mostly it is because if I encounter an incident of any sort, I likely won't know exactly what happened unless I get to see a replay, and I have yet to get AC to pay attention to my "record every race and keep the replay" setting. I hope to have that working for Thursday's race. If I get demolished T1 from someone that dive bombs the field, I'll try to go through the process of filing a protest.

BTW, Before making this post, I went and read the requirements for doing a protest. I would not be surprised if the barrier of entry for filing a protest breaks most people's "worth the effort" test when it comes to uploading video from both cockpit and tv cam views. I'm fine with this barrier of entry... don't get me wrong. The last thing I would want to do if I were to admin any league of any sort is to spend every evening just reading a bunch of complaints and making rulings, so the more hoops users have to go through when they are SURE there is something to protest the better. But my guess is that unless I'm in the running for a top spot in a championship or I get plowed into so badly so early in a race that it ruins my evening, I'm likely not going to bother.

Personally I think that's as it should be?
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#12
Just had two races that gave me 5 and 6 insidents (and points reduced even I already suffered with points by dropping places) with no fault of my own. Both races I got hit from behind and judging from lobby chat that is the real problem, guys that hit you from behind. That gave me an idea. Is it possible to code it so that guy that hits you from behind gets the points reduced (more than 3 points for my opinion, more like 10) and guy in front does not take points reduced. I think that would teach everybody to not trying to bombard through the field. I think the game gives data of hits (two cars at exact same moment that collide) and order on track on that moment. What do you think? I think it would make racing cleaner and that would mean there would be even more happy "customers".
Juge
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#13
Just like on iRacing, it is absolutely impossible to determine automatically who is to blame for a contact. You'd need to investigate every incident, and, obviously, that is not possible. These systems work though, because people who notoriously ram and crash into people will get punished more than people trying to avoid contact, so, i wouldn't bother too much.

Honestly though, it is much easier to avoid contact if you're driving in the front of the grid, because the fast people also mostly have better car control, and don't rush into you in the braking zone, for example. And that's an issue i wouldn't know how to fix for the slower guys. If you're overly cautious, it is bad too, because you will brake 50 metres too early, which obviously is bad for the people behind you.
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#14
(11-22-2017, 03:33 PM)Jan Dziock Wrote:  Just like on iRacing, it is absolutely impossible to determine automatically who is to blame for a contact. You'd need to investigate every incident, and, obviously, that is not possible. These systems work though, because people who notoriously ram and crash into people will get punished more than people trying to avoid contact, so, i wouldn't bother too much.

Honestly though, it is much easier to avoid contact if you're driving in the front of the grid, because the fast people also mostly have better car control, and don't rush into you in the braking zone, for example. And that's an issue i wouldn't know how to fix for the slower guys. If you're overly cautious, it is bad too, because you will brake 50 metres too early, which obviously is bad for the people behind you.

There is no perfect system to manage this but I think it´s on most cases blame of guy that hits you from back. I was running on front of grid all times (so it´s not clean even there) I got collected and guy who hit me finished well ahead of me because taking me out. I am just trying to make great system even greater. I agree it´s not always the blame of guy that is behind but if it´s that in most cases it seems harsh to punish guy in front same amount, or even more by loosing positions. I had average 0,2 incidents (now 1,0) before these races so I think I can avoid insidents pretty good... but these insidents I could not do anything. To be clear I am not moaning about these insidents (will fill protest for them if got time) but trying to give idea how to make system better. If 0 points seem bad to guy in front keep that in 3 to prevent anyone to brake too early etc and give that 10 point reducing to guy that hits from behind.

Also to be noted... usually guy in front can´t take out the guy in behind but I quess admins can confirm that most protest are because some one take out the guy in front. If this system takes most of those away there will be more time to look at those few insidents that are caused by the guy in front (turning to guy who tries to pass, changing lines on braking area etc)
Juge
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#15
The current system has ZERO ways to circumvent punishment for poor driving. You touch a solid object? That's an incident. Any other system and you'd have these forums full of people crying about false positives and "the system didn't accurately detect that I was ahead of him because of lag!" and the like.

Personally I'm fine driving as best as I can and suffering the T1 shenanigans that keep boosting my average above... geez it's almost 4 now, with only 21 starts.
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#16
(11-22-2017, 04:06 PM)Jukka Drugg Wrote:  Also to be noted... usually guy in front can´t take out the guy in behind but I quess admins can confirm that most protest are because some one take out the guy in front. If this system takes most of those away there will be more time to look at those few insidents that are caused by the guy in front (turning to guy who tries to pass, changing lines on braking area etc)


So what if the guy in front braked 50 metres too early, and the guy behind had no chance at all to avoid the accident? See where this is leading? Again, in an automated system like this, there's absolutely no way to determine whose fault it was. I'll go with what the people running this league always suggest - if you feel like another driver broke the rules, and collected you doing so, file a protest. That's the best way to sort out the notorious foul players. The system as it is is not the problem. It's more or less the same as in iRacing, and the system there really works, even though there still will be complaints of course, there always will be.

By the way, if you only have an average of 0.2 incidents, and it's gone up to 1.0 now, then i don't feel that's a reason to complain. 1 incident per race is extremely healthy.
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#17
I feel almost compelled to say something about contacts Smile

Most of racing incidents during the race happen going into difficult corners wheel to wheel: nobody wants to yield and crashing is almost inevitable. Monza is a perfect example because the chicanes at the end of fast straights. Until the cars are spread out contacts between cars are plenty.

The cars behind are responsible in most of cases for the contacts, but the point of view vary depending if you re a faster driver or a slower driver Smile
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#18
(11-22-2017, 07:31 PM)Jan Dziock Wrote:  
(11-22-2017, 04:06 PM)Jukka Drugg Wrote:  Also to be noted... usually guy in front can´t take out the guy in behind but I quess admins can confirm that most protest are because some one take out the guy in front. If this system takes most of those away there will be more time to look at those few insidents that are caused by the guy in front (turning to guy who tries to pass, changing lines on braking area etc)


So what if the guy in front braked 50 metres too early, and the guy behind had no chance at all to avoid the accident? See where this is leading? Again, in an automated system like this, there's absolutely no way to determine whose fault it was. I'll go with what the people running this league always suggest - if you feel like another driver broke the rules, and collected you doing so, file a protest. That's the best way to sort out the notorious foul players. The system as it is is not the problem. It's more or less the same as in iRacing, and the system there really works, even though there still will be complaints of course, there always will be.

By the way, if you only have an average of 0.2 incidents, and it's gone up to 1.0 now, then i don't feel that's a reason to complain. 1 incident per race is extremely healthy.

You mean someone would start to make that on purpose? If that is the case there is always protest form to correct that wrong penalty given. I am just trying to figure out way to get rid of the biggest problem which is guys that go too fast on braking zone and use another guy as their brake. Current system does not seem to punish that enough and thats reason why we have that much problems with that (and it does not matter how much faster you are if other guy just does not brake and collect you). Also, filling protest does not give you back the points and ratings you just missed because of that crash that was not your fault. And also it does not take away points that other guy with no brake pedal gained by getting rid of you. btw. Nice, clean, hard racing with you on practice yesterday with Tatuus Smile

Luca, I agree. I have nothing against tough racing wheel to wheel as long as some room is given to other guy too. I just had my first touches that were my fault but they didn´t get guy off track or loose position for it (actually I think I gave him more speed out of corner Smile

This was just an idea, and if nobody else thinks it´s good one then it can be forgotten. Hopefully we get some comments on the case (hopefully from admin too). Most important reason of collision is always between ears or between wheel and seat. My opinion is that everyone should aim for 0 incidents and every incident should be small and accident. Drivers should always be prepared when there is cars ahead... usually that means you need to brake little earlier than normally because someone on that group will have earlier braking point or some trouble with braking or cornering. I think 1,0 average is good for pub racing but I would expect more from real sim racers.

If this idea was bad, here is another. What if one penalty given by protest form would be reducing more points from the guilty one of the incident and give back points that were reduced to innocent part. I think it would make more happening between the ears department before ramming in to the corner because you know that by doing it wrong will not get you points but instead reduce them. How does this sound?
Juge
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#19
I'd be happy with whatever point alteration the admins see fit to dish out when they rule on a protest file. Right now I don't think they do that (likely would be an extra step they aren't currently set up to do easily?) but they do a great job of suspending/banning folks that shouldn't be on the tarmac. My only gripe there is that it cuts into my gaming time editing videos (although I'm getting better at that, and it is a useful skill to have in general).
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#20
For me the perfect system would be a program that records every contact in a race and then uploads it to YouTube. Then, it could also open a thread in the forum so the community could decide who is the guilty of the incident (if there is s guilty)

Obviously, this is just science fiction, in my opinion what we have now is more than enough, but seeing the possibilities that Assetto offers to modders, I won't be surprised to see something like this somewhere in the future.
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