[Pete Parisetti]

Yes, I know - it's me again... Bear with me please. Also, I understand from the discussion on my other post "Where does the time go?" that this is an issue that affects many sim racers.

Here we go again. I train on a new car, and on a new track - Dallara F3, Spa Francochamps. In a few days I set a personal best of 2:14.3, which I believe to be quite decent. By that I mean that I can see room to take off another second at a stretch, but I can't honestly believe anybody can lap below 2:12. Then I check, and I see that top people do 2:08, and perhaps even less. This - as I already explained - is absurd and totally incomprehensible to me.

So I decided to run a little test. In this video you see me, on the bottom, doing a 2:15.0 lap - not my best, but typical of what I can do on that track. On the top you see a guy doing 2:09. 

https://youtu.be/OvJXpfJQ0Gg

Please, tell me where the difference is. Not the difference of one or two seconds - that I can easily understand. The difference of SIX SECONDS, which are AN ETERNITY. Look carefully at the line, the gears, the braking points and tell me if, honestly, you think that the differences you see are worth six seconds.

To begin with, look at turn 1. At the apex, we have EXACTLY the same speed and the wheel is turned EXACTLY at the same angle. Check the position of the hands. Yet, he comes out faster and in a few hundred meters, when we hit the first curb, he already has kind of half a second. 
Then, check out at about 30 seconds.  I am doing 231, and he is doing 237. Is this the kind of difference that builds up to SIX SECONDS?

Then, again, look a few seconds later. My speed stabilises at 234 and won't go any faster, whilst he keeps accelerating and goes up to 242... That has nothing to do with my driving.

The rest is history. If you have the patience to check, you will see that the lines are very, very similar, and yet he seems to be driving another car altogether and he keeps moving away from me.

Am I wrong? Am I failing to see massive mistakes I am making which would justify such an enormous difference?

Thanks for bearing with me.

[Duarte Luz]

I'm no expert but
1- Is your setup exactly the same? this difference in speed maybe downforce and gearing
2- and yes You do a perfect time is by shaving little time on every entry mid and exit of a corner, this on a entie lap translates to 6 seconds

[Niklas Bratt]

If you look at your turn 1 exit you are not using the whole track. This makes you loose speed for the full run through Eau Rouge and up the hill. All that extra speed he is carrying trough Eau Rouge is used to stabilise his speed higher than yours on the straight. The slowest speed he was doing in Eau Rouge was 230 kph whilst yours was 223 kph. At the same time your fastest speed before the drop in speed was 231.

Thats just a small analyse of the first corners really. If this carries on for the full track I can easily see a few seconds there.

I haven't driven this car myself on this track so I don't have much of a reference except for the youtube clip.

[Pete Parisetti]

I'm no expert but
1- Is your setup exactly the same? this difference in speed maybe downforce and gearing
2- and yes You do a perfect time is by shaving little time on every entry mid and exit of a corner, this on a entie lap translates to 6 seconds

Duarte, thanks but I disagree. Shaving little time on every corner translates into 2 seconds, maybe 3, at a stretch. 6 is way too much. I don't understand. 

On the setup, you are right. He might have optimised that, and I run with basic. That in itself may be worth 2 seconds on such a long track.

[Duarte Luz]

I'm no expert but
1- Is your setup exactly the same? this difference in speed maybe downforce and gearing
2- and yes You do a perfect time is by shaving little time on every entry mid and exit of a corner, this on a entie lap translates to 6 seconds

Duarte, thanks but I disagree. Shaving little time on every corner translates into 2 seconds, maybe 3, at a stretch. 6 is way too much. I don't understand. 

On the setup, you are right. He might have optimised that, and I run with basic. That in itself may be worth 2 seconds on such a long track.

What I said is a general thing for every circuit. Longer circuits is easier to lose more time!


This specific circuit has long straights, if you lose a little on corner exit it will translate to a lot of time along the straights, sector 1 and 3 are all about this( one(first) corner dictates the whole sector), sector 2 is about keeping momentum/flow, if you cant maintain speed you lose a bunch of time.

Hope it helps

* I'm not describing your video, just explaining the circuit

[Pete Parisetti]

If you look at your turn 1 exit you are not using the whole track. This makes you loose speed for the full run through Eau Rouge and up the hill. All that extra speed he is carrying trough Eau Rouge is used to stabilise his speed higher than yours on the straight. The slowest speed he was doing in Eau Rouge was 230 kph whilst yours was 223 kph. At the same time your fastest speed before the drop in speed was 231.

Thats just a small analyse of the first corners really. If this carries on for the full track I can easily see a few seconds there.

I haven't driven this car myself on this track so I don't have much of a reference except for the youtube clip.

Thank you Niklas. Let's think about this. On the section you've analysed, I think it's quite reasonable to say that he is on average 3% faster than me because of the better exit from turn one (I painstakingly checked our speeds at various points and that is the difference). The very long straight takes about 30 seconds, so he would have gained one second (3.33% of 30 seconds) on almost 1.7 km. These long straights are were time is really gained or lost - differences in more bendy parts are fractional. There are two long straights at Spa, so let's imagine that I also drive a sub-optimal line before the second one (which I don't really think I do) and that's another second lost. That makes two seconds. Six? ANOTHER four seconds lost? Come on.

Plus - be patient with me please - as anybody who figures out a track at the beginning I try many slightly different lines, and the difference in time lost or gained is a few tenths at max. Now that I know the track I am consistent within 6 or 7 tenths, lap on lap. It remains inconceivable that by altering lines a little bit here and there you would gain this colossal amount of time. 

Also, the issue remains of why his car gets up to 242 and mine stops at 234. I suspect, as somebody else said, this may be setup. That in itself can be worth at least a couple of seconds on such a long track, and maybe that simply is the answer. What do you think?

[Niklas Bratt]

It would be interesting if you just for a test went straight through Eau Rouge just cutting the corners and see where your speed would settle on the straight with the default setup. If it still settles below his speed then we can assume he does indeed have another setup.

Considering a setup and hitting all the apexes and using the full track it does feel possible. There are so much variables in a lap including braking zones, braking technique, time between power and brake and then back to power, apexes, entries, exits and much more. Then you start adding traffic and actual racing it all gets complicated.

I do like your threads Pete as it is a subject that is highly interesting. I myself have the same thoughts when I try hot laps and then compare them and realise I'm not as fast as I feel I am.

[Martin Smith]

I only looked at turn 1 and the differences are everywhere.

It's hard to judge the braking point because of the different FOVs but he's braking from higher speed, he clips the apex more tightly, runs out closer to the exit curb, his apex speed is indicated as 72* while yours is 68, he's accelerating at or just before the apex and you're accelerating after it. You can see he has more steering angle too, which is what allows him to turn the car more before the apex and unwind earlier to get on the gas sooner. Mutiply that by a dozen corners and it adds up big time.

*One disclaimer in all that is that the speed indicated for opponents in my videos is always lower than reality (I often get passed while the replay shows a lower speed for the faster guy), so if this is the same for all users then he's actually doing more than 72 at the apex.

[James Blint]

He's earlier on power mostly, some parts a lot earlier than you, just T1 it's probably already half a second or two cars length which wouldn't look surprising if you were on the track at the same time. He also carries more speed at the apex, points earlier ending up closer to them with less resistance while tracking out, his braking looks better, hard at first, releases and keeps a tiny bit to rotate. All this combined constantly adds up for acceleration and top speeds and it's easily a couple of seconds on a long track like Spa. It might also be in part due to the setup but there s likely a lot you can make up from that lap.

[Michal Janak]

i wrote it . it is about talent to make many things together and at best , i know therory to but cant replicate it so i am slower too, but trying to be consistent (many faster guys spins often or crash) and thing forward read oponents and try avoid unsafe situations and crash in front and it pays off very often